So I managed to offend one of my friends on Facebook.
Honestly, I wasn't trying to be offensive. I posted a brief lament about how the spelling and apostrophe errors on Facebook make my insides shrivel, and it turned into one of the lengthiest discussions ever to grace my Facebook page.
Seriously.
And while lots of people were coming in with wisecrack sentences like, "I hope your expecting smart reply's from ppl," one person took it personally and ranted about things like learning disabilities and people who struggle with spelling.
Wow.
My angst (which clearly I should have kept to myself) has nothing to do with learning disabilities. I'm a writer. Words comprise a healthy chunk of my life. And when they are spelled wrong, I can't stand it.
Especially when I've spelled them wrong. Because, yeah, I do that sometimes.
We all do that. Right?
And I believe that, as writers, we need to hold to a higher standard. If we're not sure of the spelling of a word--or if a word needs an apostrophe or not--we should check to be sure before we post in a public forum. Or write a letter. Or a blog post. Or anything. Because we are wordsmiths. And if we don't set the standard, who will?
Sure, Facebook is just Facebook. It doesn't ultimately matter. But I'm the type of person who likes to keep the same standard wherever I am.
There's casual, which Facebook is. And then there's illiterate, which is not the same as casual. I use all sorts of slang on Facebook, but I sure as heck check the spelling of words I'm not sure of.
Same thing on Twitter. Even more so, because Twitter is my professional network. And writing is my profession.
My public lament on Facebook had nothing to do with people's learning abilities. It had everything to do with the rampant deterioration of the English language, and the lack of care the general population seems to have about it. Yes, of course I'm passionate about this! And when I see a Facebook status that says, "my docter", I go slightly mad. (I'm not making that one up. It's what set me off in the first place.)
An astute friend of mine added the following to the barrage of comments:
"It is obvious that language evolves over time, affected by location, time, technology and outside events such as wars and migrations. It seems to me, however, that English, instead of evolving, has fallen off a cliff. Fundamentals are no longer taught nor understood by a larger and larger percentage of the population."
And:
"If we continue to deviate further and further from accepted standards of writing and spelling, we will move more quickly away from the potential of meaningful communication across cultures and will isolate ourselves behind a barrier of miscommunication."
So, as writers, what are your thoughts? Is it okay to use "I've always been a bad speller" as an excuse for handing in manuscripts rife with spelling errors? Does social media lend a valid reason for the devolution of our written words, using "casual" as an excuse for "sloppy"?
And while I certainly admit to IMing "How r u?" to my husband, is it excusable for me to publicly express myself in a way that is less than a shining reflection of my ability (and standard) as a writer?
Have at it! And I, meanwhile, will attempt to make things right with my friend, who is someone I really care about. Awful, isn't it, how our passions sometimes step on people's toes without our meaning them to?
(Moral: Never take the public rants of a writer personally.)
Love you guys!
While I try not to rant and rave about it, it does bug me. There are ways and ways around spelling dysfunction that don't even take much effort, and I know a great many people who simply do not care.
ReplyDeleteI am married to a highly dyslexic man from a family of the same. The thing that strikes me most about these relatives is that they do make an effort - my husband will always ask for a spell-check from me, because he knows that auto-correct will sometimes give him a homophone.
Spelling is much harder for him - in fact, reading is a real trial - but he is an intelligent man and seeks to present himself as such.
I am tolerant of people who cannot easily spell. However, I find it irksome that people don't spell-check posts before making them if this is a problem, and I don't really think there is an excuse for misspellings in professional works - there's almost always someone you can ask to check it over for you (and indeed, that should be part of the process anyway).
Here's hoping this post is error free!
I completely agree with everything you've said. As a teen writer, I hate the reputation that my generation has for bad spelling/grammar. Sometimes, when on Facebook, I cringe! Just saying 'oh, I've always been a bad speller' is no excuse, because it's so easy to practice and learn to be better.
ReplyDeleteZia
http://singing-blue.blogspot.ca/
Some mistakes are just due to speed on the keyboard and knowing it is not a formal post so who really cares. I think that is the attitude. I would , however, in the 21st century worry about a husband who cannot read - sorry - just my opinion. I think if spelling is "a real trial" as you said then he could go back to some very good HS textbooks or MG word-builders. What you said, seems so sad. I remember being at Xmas a couple years ago with my sister and her husband got a book as a present - he tossed it into the corner and announced proudly "I've never read a book in my life!" I thought - oh my God sis, I feel so sorry for you and your children. Sounds like you have the same burden to bear so my sympathies. Life will indeed be long but death eventually releases us all.
ReplyDeleteI've always been a bad speller, but that's why I take extra effort to correct the spelling in everything I write. If you have something you're not good at, it's on you to make up for that and improve, not anyone else's. To say that everyone else should just 'deal with' your bad spelling strikes me as entitled and lazy.
ReplyDeleteIf someone is dyslexic, then they have an excuse as to why their first draft might be rife with more misspellings. But they should still have someone else check it if they want to be taken seriously. Now, obviously, you might not do this for every facebook post, but if people correct you after you make a status update, you really shouldn't get OFFENDED.
Honestly, people get offended over the silliest things nowadays. Dyslexia is a disability. Being a bad speller isn't. If it is, then where are my checks in the mail?
Dolphin - She said her husband had dyslexia. He doesn't have trouble reading because he didn't learn to read properly. He has trouble because everything he reads looks like this in his brain:
ReplyDeleteIt wsa teh bset of tmies, it wsa teh wsort of tmies.
I've always tried my best to use language to my best advantage. My mom was an English teacher and my dad was a lawyer, so since I was little I was taught to be precise with my words. If I'm not sure of the spelling or meaning of a word, I look it up before I use it. Nothing is worse than being misunderstood.
ReplyDeleteGranted, with the rapid communication technology has brought us, through Twitter, Facebook, and even blog comments (!), so many people seem to be in a rush to make themselves heard. In their race to throw their ideas out into the world, sometimes the result is a glaring lack of clarity.
I completely understand that there are people who have learning disabilities that prevent them from understanding their errors, but that can't possibly account for the deluge of incorrect usage I see every day.
It takes only a minute or two to review what you've written for a Facebook status update, or a blog comment, or a tweet. For me, those minutes are well spent if I can ensure I've made myself clear! Of course I use slang, and I have a bad habit of making up words when I can't find one that suits my needs, but overall, I try to make the language work for me. It's a little more work than just dashing everything off in haste, but that's what makes the printed (or electronically presented) word worth reading. If the reader is going to stumble over your words and come away confused, why bother committing them to paper (or the internet) in the first place?
All that being said, I try to avoid correcting my friends when I see mistakes in spelling, or misplaced apostrophes, or even usage errors, unless the mistake is so egregious that I'm unsure what their point was in the first place. Nine times out of ten, I can parse their meaning, but if it's completely unclear, I try not to go all ranty on them either. (See? Just made up a word there!) Sometimes it's hard, but I do my best to muddle through. I'll keep leading by example, and make sure even my shortest messages are grammatically correct and free of spelling errors.
This is totally not meant to pour salt, but simply because I just learned this last week: "moreso" is not in any dictionary I can find... and Oxford is usually my go-to source. I alway thought it was a word! I don't know why I thought so, but I did ;)
ReplyDelete...aaaand there's no edit feature so I can't fix my "always". Oh, the irony. Oh well. I blame it on my sprained thumb ;)
ReplyDeleteMaybe that's why half my Facebook friends put in extraneous apostrophes? Sprained thumbs? Eh?
Probably not ;)
You have me cracking up over here! I'm guessing your friend has someone close to her with a disability. My little guy has severe dyslexia. We finally resorted to a private, super expensive, specialized school to sort him out. At this point, he's got a better grasp of writing than my older whiz kid, just because they don't teach grammar and punctuation in our public schools like they used to. I wish diagramming sentences would make a come back!
ReplyDeleteI think your friend needs to come to terms with their own issues before unleashing their venom at you or anyone else. It doesn't sound like you were targeting anyone specifically, but just bad spelling in general. Too bad they took it so personally.
ReplyDeleteAnd yeah, I tend to cringe when I see obvious spelling errors as opposed to typos - especially from the writing community. I like to think we hold ourselves to a higher standard when it comes to our language.
Ah! I don't think that is exactly true. I spent five years teaching remedial reading to kids and many of them claimed to have dyslexia. Just like many kids today have ADHD when in an earlier day it just meant they did not pay attention. Do the dyslexic husbands think their wives only spent 05.00 $ on a dress? No, I think they can get it is 50.00 but when it comes to a book or someting creative...they get dyslexic. I think they also enjoy the UPSER OWBL even if the home team is losing 70 TO 43. Don't indulge excuses - it does no one any good.
ReplyDeleteDolphin - my husband is dyslexic, it's a learning disability. He can read, but where reading energises and relaxes many people, it's effortful for him. Writing much more so.
ReplyDeleteThis doesn't stop him from reading or indeed, writing, and he's much, much faster than he used to be due to practice, but he'll never find it easy the way I or most of us here do. Nor can he spell- he can only really spell phonetically because of how his brain encodes words. Again, this doesn't stop him from trying to improve himself.
He's really not lazy at all - I can't think of anyone who works harder. He did the NaNoWriMo challenge with me last year - even though it took him every minute of spare time and he still ended up behind.
Just thought I'd clarify.
Amen, Authoress. I teach a writing workshop for high-level nonprofit staff moving into the CEO role. My first point is always: Your writing isn't a reflection of your writing skills. It's a reflection of you. We make instant judgments about a person's competence or incompetence from their writing. IT'S IMPORTANT.
ReplyDeleteWell I applaud your husband and I will say that my most rewarding times as a teacher were with the class that could not read because we did it together, we explored and we had fun. And no one judged them. They all left fully capable to read but many still had their emotinal hangups...particularly the boys. There is a great disagreement among academics regarding dyslexia and ADHD as I am sure you are aware. IN the latter case, we are medicating a generation of kids which will - or could - have life lomg implications. Not only emotionally, but psychologically as well. So I would like that to be a diagnosis of last resort. As for dyslexia, I understand the brain functions and how it may be ordered differeently in some learners - which is why if you are teaching a lesson you try to combine auditory, visual, etc hooks for them. But, if your husband is a phonetic speller then he is not dyslexic.....justy spelling phone as fone does not mean you still do not see the words bacwards. If he is a phonetic speller it kist means he may not have had the basics of R and R when he was a kid - or if he did, did not care about them...phonetics does not help true dyslexics. I applaud him and hope he continues and he has my full admiration. Thank God he married you because WITHOUT a wife who valued words, he would never have bothered. The world that you are opening up to him in infinite and I hope he appreciates it. If he is truly dyslexic then tell him from me OODG OFR OUY (that's a joke and I think he would appreciate it) :)
ReplyDeleteVicorva -- I applaud your husband for working so hard to overcome his disability. I cannot imagine the effort. And NaNo on top of it? You've got a winner there. :)
ReplyDeleteHappy Dolphin -- I PASSIONATELY agree with what you are saying about ADHD/ADD and medicating a generation of children. I could go on and on about how vehemently opposed I am to the over-diagnosis and often almost-flippant dispersal of drugs. But I won't. (Since I've already offended one person in the last 24 hours. ;D)
ReplyDeleteI think there's a balance to be had between "allowing a language to evolve" or "allowing casual usage of words" and "abandoning all sense of proper form and function."
ReplyDeleteMuch of today's tech-communication seems to be falling on the "abandoning" side of the fence.
I don't mind shortcuts or slang in moderation. I don't mind casual written communication that parallels the spoken word. I do mind random gibberish that defies all efforts at comprehension.
The funny thing is, it's not just the "grammer sticklers" who get upset. Some friends of mine (originally from New York) said they were bullied in high school because they "didn't sound black enough." They were actually ostracized for speaking correctly - using grammatically correct speech was seen as pretentious.
I want to give you a big hug, Authoress! You kill me. IMHO I think it's all context. Twitter gives you 'X' amount of space to express yourself so I don't mind a little word cropping and such to squeeze it all in. But I completely understand your rant. My internal grammar meter often tips the scales at the day job. It never ceases to amaze me how horribly 'professionals' can write! Oi! But, since they are not professional writers, I take a deep breath and let it go. ;)
ReplyDeleteAs a writer and an aspiring linguist I am actually fascinated by this process. I strive to write correctly and clearly, but the spelling errors actually reflect language shift, your friend hit the nail on the head - or came very close to it when she said that:
ReplyDelete[blockquote] "If we continue to deviate further and further from accepted standards of writing and spelling, we will move more quickly away from the potential of meaningful communication across cultures and will isolate ourselves behind a barrier of miscommunication."[/blockquote]
But that's not necessarily the case.
Language shift happens and all the grammar teachers in the world can't stop it. I'm studying this (or will be in the fall when I start grad school), and spelling errors like your example of docter and most others happen when spoken language is no longer phonetically represented by our alphabet. (that -or at the end of doctor sounds remarkably similar to -ar at the end of similar or -er at the end of faster).
In fact Google Appendix Probi, it's a homophone correction list made up by a latin grammar teacher around 300 CE (or AD whatever floats your boat). The changes he was trying to correct eventually progress to be represented in the pronunciation of words in modern French, Italian, Spanish, and other Romance Languages.
In fact, part of the reason that French spelling is so difficult is that it was one of the first in Europe to create their own new phonetic writing system (around 800CE), and the more phonetically written languages didn't switch over from trying to write in a latin that wasn't really spoken anymore until the 14 and 15th centuries, over 600 years later. English has the same problem, but I couldn't quote you when we started formalizing our writing system off the top of my head.
So, I understand the need to clearly express myself, but at the same time, I wonder how far we have to go from pre-Shakespearean English to decide it's time to re-design our writing system. I doubt it will get redesigned in my lifetime or my children's or even my grandchildren's, but eventually, English will reach the point that it ceases to even resemble our writing system and it needs a redesign.
Sorry for the long post, but you totally hit on what I'm hoping to study in the fall. I'm actually interested in how bilingualism and internet use will result in language shift in Spanish, but language shift affects all languages, and I wonder if internet slang writing will drive a revolution of informal writing that leads to a sort of "high english" writing and "Common english writing" one for formal situations and the other that reflects actual pronunciations.
/nerding out
cheyenne -- Alas, I succumbed to an "accepted standard" spelling instead of using the 2 words. I am SO changing it right now. :D
ReplyDelete(See? I LOVE this!)
Not to derail the post topic here, but my kiddo with the dyslexia also has ADHD. We have never medicated him, but have been asked to by every single teacher and principal he's ever had. Instead, we did the horrible COGMED (neurocognitive program to retrain the brain to increase working memory) to address his attentional issues, meditate daily, etc. But it's easy to dismiss ADHD as a true problem if you've never been in the trenches with a struggling child. These children actually have delays of up to 5 - 7 years in development in certain areas of the brain, and measurably smaller brains than "normal" people. It is truly a physiological impairment. Also, true dyslexics can learn phonics and decoding. My little guy's homework looks like a dictionary with all the coding on every single word. At his school, they attack it in every possible way, and one of them is teaching extreme decoding skills. :)
ReplyDeleteAuthoress.....we agree and I could tell you some horror stories but they make me cry. I once went to a school in rural Montana (I was just a guest that day) and they had a TOTAL of 45 kids in the entire high school and in prepping me they gave me a tour,,,and the principal told me that 27 were "special needs" - I said in my usual tactful manner "what the F are you talking about??{ and he eplained that that constellation of kids had either been identifed as ADD, or dysleic or emotionally disturbed etc - and of course I just shook my head. Please do not medicate our next generation beyond the point of feeling - ad yes. parents, pain is part of feeling. Anyway, I feel I have gone off topic. Thank you so much for what you do. YOu have created a real online community - and I am so happy to be a part of it. And I will be as abrasive as I have to be to keep it as good as it is.
ReplyDeleteYou are COMPLETELY right. I don't think you should make things right with your waaaaaaay too sensitive friend, I think you should stand your ground. I visited my fourth grader's school the other day and I saw wall after wall of poems written by the students entitled 'If I was a queen'. Now I'm enough of a language junkie to have almost walked into the principal's office to say 'If I WERE!!!! WERE!!!!' Ugh.
ReplyDeleteFrankly, seeing people be illiterate is the number one thing that makes me want to give up trying to be a writer. I mean, why bother?
Hold your ground! Stick up for correct grammar!
And I'm writing as a parent of a child with a rather significant learning disability. And as a certified dyslexic. I don't let my son get away with a single wrong apostrophe.
This absolutely drives me nuts. On one hand, I try to be understanding about it; I know that most of my friends aren't writers, and don't pay the same attention to detail as I do. I also admit that certain words are really difficult for me, as an individual, to spell correctly, or certain rules difficult for me to grasp (possessive apostrophes, to be specific).
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, when I'm talking to people-- or reading their words, at least-- my opinion of them falls with every misspelled word. Not for everyone, but then, I'm graduating college, so I still know many people from high school. The friend who struggled with spelling and writing through high school, has a slight disability, and can't spell 'light' correctly every time? Excused. Our class salutatorian? Not.
And it's not a casual thing. One of the teachers in my high school used the town newspaper to explore spelling and grammar errors. When talking about after-college careers, my adviser shared a story about a girl who got a promotion, her own office, and a position created just for her because she was correcting the spelling and grammar on company memos. It's amazing-- and not in a good way.
And no, I would never medicate my son. And, in spite of his issues with speech, he is at the top of his class in spelling. Way above grade level. A lot depends on the parents. It's not enough to throw hands up and say, 'there's nothing to be done'. A lot of people write, a lot of us have kids, it's up to us to make sure they're literate.
ReplyDeleteBetsy - I think the reason why many people dismiss ADHD is the over-diagnosis of the disorder. When it seems like every child who acts up in class is immediately suspected of having ADHD, outsiders start viewing it as a blanket excuse to medicate unruly children into submission.
ReplyDeleteIt becomes a situation where those "crying wolf" discredit those with reason to be distressed.
My best wishes in continuing to help your little guy grow and learn.
My daughter has dyslexia, but I don't allow her disability to interfere with what she has to say, whether it be on FaceBook or anywhere else. Since she knows I have a high standard and is tired of me correcting her, she often asks me how to spell certain words. This careful adherence to correct spelling has actually led to... OMG! Correct spelling! It's slow in coming, but I am seeing small improvements. There's no reason for anyone to get offended by your FB comments. There are too many resources out there to get complacent in repeating the same mistakes.
ReplyDeleteEveryone is probably going to hate me for this but...
ReplyDeleteI am fascinated by the changes through which the English language is going. It honestly doesn't upset me at all. I'm in awe.
To me, words are an abstract concept. They are a package for emotions and ideas--things that actually matter. Why do you know "blue" is a color? Because someone told you. And it only means that in English. Every other language has its own word for blue. The word-package that represents an idea literally doesn't matter. It's akin to taking offense to using Christmas wrapping paper for a birthday present. It's the present (really, the thought) that counts.
It's the idea BEHIND the word that matters.
And yes, it only has significance if someone else knows the idea you're trying to convey. But I don't see this as a problem. We're all internet savvy. We're so connected to each other, it's impossible to miss the latest trends in "slang" (a word I feel shouldn't exist, by the way, but that's a different discussion!).
Words are only "new" for so long. When the meaning/feeling/connotation behind a "new" word is established, why is it wrong to use because it doesn't fit the mold we've been keeping to, out of habit more than anything.
I truly don't see it as a deterioration of the language but as an evolution.
I can, however, see why many people might consider it a negative change. But I think (and remember, this is just my opinion) those feelings come from a misguided sense of dignity about the English language. When did a set group of words, spelled a certain way, become better than any new "blip" or "bloop" that came out of someone else's mouth?
Shakespeare made up words for his plays, words that we still use today, thinking of ourselves so highly.
It's not the deterioration of words wrecking our beautiful language, it's the deterioration of meanings.
Does "I luv U" mean less than "I love you?"
No. It shouldn't. Because the words, how I present them to you, the order of the vowels and consonants, they literally do not matter.
You should just recognize the gravity of what I conveyed. You should recognize the immense importance of gaining someone's love. You should recognize the trust and faith and emotion that go into such an admission.
You should know I would never say it, never, ever, ever, unless I meant it with all of my <3.
Just my two cents. =]
@Mel Corbett--Just to add some geeky comments here. When it comes to the Germanic languages I am going to disagree on a few points.
ReplyDeleteBefore the Norman conquest in 1066, Anglo-Saxon England already had an extensive history in writing a language very close to the vernacular, of which some 2000 examples have survived the ages. Although by the 11th century Old English itself had become an archaic language, it wasn't until the introduction of Latin in England that the division between spoken language and written language became so apparant--to the point where that introduction brought with it an increase in illiteracy. But Old English, especially when it still used the runic alphabet, was a phonetic writing system.
Now all that's left are the infernal "ye oldes" because no one knows this "y" actually represents the thorn and thus the "th" sound.
Languages such as Old High German were of course strongly influenced by the High German consonant shift--and the existence of a WHOLE lot of dialects--but even then there are written records dating back to the 800-900s that represent a relatively phonetic writing system.
Also, he whole development of Medieval Latin is a whole different concept. Although in extensive parts of Europe it wasn't a spoken language, in writing it has developed along the lines of one, discarding obscure grammar rules for more common usage ones ;)
I notice gmail and blogger both shifted to buttons with pictures of pencils and papers and cogwheels replacing words. Not my style. It's time to play around in the cogwheel - err, settings - to see if I can get my words back. We'll be back to writing in pictograms before you know it.
ReplyDeleteI try to look over most of the misspellings and mistakes on Facebook posts because I realize most people aren't as anal about grammar and punctuation as I am. But if you're trying to get others to take you seriously as a writer, there's no excuse for such things - especially in manuscripts, queries, etc. Period.
ReplyDeleteI have an HP that I bought when LOST was in its 1st season....the x and the z stick....if I get going in a rhythm words I want often come out like this ....razor = raor.......emphasize = emphasie etc
ReplyDeleteI know how to spell the words but I don't bother correcting. I have a bad habit of doing that in reviews and also e-mails - yet I would never do it if writing longhand. So, I think technology has something to do with it. I guess my answer is - let the forum decide whether or not you will be observant. We would all have our own conclusions on that. BUt, I want to say again, and I am not sure why no one is repeating this, as someone who has been to conferences, retreats etc,,,this, online, does EXACTLY that, It is so unique and valuable compared to other Rah Rah sites. This is a place for a writer - so those who have been here a while know what I am talking about - those who are new, please stay - you will be happy you did.
I feel like I ought to leave a long, detailed and well thought out comment in response to this, but really, in my heart, I just want to say "This. So much this." and be done. Actually, I think that's precisely what I'll do.
ReplyDeleteWhat you said. So much.
;0)
First of all, Authoress, I totally heart you, your forum, and all you do for writers. But setting a good example as a writer and denouncing non-writers' poor English usage, to me, are two different things.
ReplyDeleteI guess my question is this: How *productive* is it for people who have strong control over English & all its peculiarities to publicly lament when others don't?
I know some of what you're commenting on is FB laziness (btw crappy grammar etc. is only the beginning of poor standards of behavior there), but there are so many reasons people may misspell or punctuate incorrectly in public; many of them have already been listed, so I won't rehash them. Calling people out on FB is just puts people on the defensive.
Also, maybe we should all look at our skills in other areas--math and science, for example--which one could argue are equally important to the advancement of humankind, stop using the excuse, "I'm not good at math/science," and get up to standard in those areas. When we make embarrassingly uneducated comments concerning the most basic laws of the universe, scientists cant STAND it. ; )
The problem is, sometimes people--and even writers--don't know enough to know that their grammar or spelling is wrong. For instance, I only figured out a year ago that "farther" and "further" aren't interchangeable, and I've only known for the last six months that "lay" is the past tense of "lie."
ReplyDeleteI agree that we need to be the best examples of grammar and spelling that we can be, but I also think that everybody's at a different stage, so there's no use getting bent out of shape about it. There will always be people who know more or less grammar than I do (notice I didn't say "me" :) ), so I've tried to stop feeling superior around the people who know less and inferior around the people who know more. I figure everything will even out eventually.
I don't mind slang and such being used, as long as I can understand it. What drives me nuts is when people's spelling and grammar becomes a barrier to understanding, and they refuse to clarify because they're insulted that you criticized their grammar.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to put in and say that I both agree and disagree with this post.
ReplyDeleteOn the agree side: my freshmen year in college, I was enrolled in an *Honors* English (expository writing) course, but *still* got the "you use a lot of big words" remark from other students about my papers. So I completely understand the feeling like you're going crazy because no one can *speak* anymore. I also very much believe in proofing any piece of writing that you want to present at all professionally, and if your business is writing, then that rule holds doubly.
However, on the disagree side: we are a product of our culture, and many people are focused on very different things than each other. It's easy to *say* "just *practice* a little and you'll improve." But if I spent five minutes every day on each of the things I thought or was told I ought to, I'd have absolutely no free time. We all have our priorities, and while some people's may be misguided, I think we need to respect the fact that in most cases, they're just *different*.
Of course, we all also have our flash points, and when those collide, things will tend to get hairy no matter what.
Completely agree with you Authoress! I make an effort to type in correct grammar because it just feels right to me. And, I've been known to give friends a hard time if they leave ridiculously bad grammar on my page. Since I know my friends personally I respond on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes I let it go, other times not. Who cares? It's your facebook and you make a valid point. It's too bad someone picked a fight with you, which, in my opinion, was not an appropriate response to what you were trying to say.
ReplyDeleteI 'm right there with you. It's a big problem for me to work my way around errors of the written word. A perfect example of this - when I found myself single again after 16 years, I decided to try online dating. I was just about to delete a potential match from my list because of a few errors when my friend, who always has my best interests at heart, suggested I cut him some slack as he was a non-native English speaker. I hadn't even noticed the part about French being his native language because he used the wrong verb tense in a prior sentence. I did give him another chance and we ended up getting married five years ago. Good thing my friend knows me so well and could continue to pay attention after a simple error!
ReplyDeleteHere. Here.
ReplyDeleteOh, I'm not perfect. Heaven knows that, but I think writer's should at least try to learn what's right and what's not. The more I beta read (and others read for me), the more I realize how lacking our basic language skills are.
Actually, I'm planning on starting a Grammar Friday on my blog (I already have a Magical Word Monday for vocabulary)just to review basic punctuation and grammar rules - not only for others, but more for myself.
Lol! I just noticed one or two mistakes in my post. Eeeee!
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with Janelle and Krista on this one.
ReplyDeleteI have a friend who is passionate about healthy eating and likes to "critique" everything we eat. She comes off very smug and superior and it's a real turn-off. Authoress brought up a great topic. There have been some very thoughtful comments here that add to the discussion, and other comments that just seem full of smug judgement.
On one hand, I'm a writer, words are my trade, and I take myself seriously when I'm writing. I have a hard time texting without at least trying for full spellings and proper punctuation.
ReplyDeleteWhen I'm posting to a site populated by other writers or when I'm writing in any way approaching a professional capacity, then I do try to write as well as I can and proofread my work.
On the other hand, there are only 24 hours in a day and about a hundred places I might need to respond to a writing question, post a critique, answer a friend's FB comment, IM a buddy, etc., etc. So careful editing becomes a sort of triage--edit the ones that will really bite you in the butt and do the best you can on first pass with the "casual" ones. There just isn't enough time for me to be perfect everywhere I write. There just isn't.
Typos happen, so I'm willing to give people a pass, especially when it's someone I know knows better and likely just made a mistake (because they're just as pressed for time as I am but bothered to communicate, anyway). If it's a simple mistake someone makes frequently (i.e., they obviously don't know better), I might point it out. By and large, I don't try to correct people, but I will ask for clarification if the entire point of the communication was lost to poor spelling and syntax.
Really, the only thing that seriously gets my goat is when people both abbreviate (r u going 2nite?) but then, also fail to provide any sort of proper word order. If I can't figure out what you're trying to say, ever, then I'll stop talking to you.
I'll be the first to berate someone for not proofreading their query (that's your writing career you're tossing out there), but I don't have anywhere near the time and energy it would take to care whether someone mixed up "your" and "you're" on FB.
I am the first to admit, I am not a great speller. I blame part of that on moving to the USA when I was eight and learning how to spell. However, I have a dictionary and spell check that are my constant friends. I love that blogger and Facebook now show you in your comments if you spell something wrong.
ReplyDeleteI think, as writers, we are all used to constructive criticism. So when someone tells us that we've made a mistake in our writing or speech, we thank them for informing us and endeavor to avoid that mistake in the future.
ReplyDeleteWhereas the common person seems to get defensive over any sort of criticism. Some of them will even insist that they are right. I've actually had people say, "Huh? No, it's MUTE point. What kind of word is 'moot'?"
Quite frankly, I get very annoyed with public, high-handed critiques of grammar and spelling, and it isn't because I have a hard time with it (although I do make errors). It's different if I've asked you to critique my work--that's fine. If not, then have some compassion for that fact that others may not have your skills, or your background or education. (It's just like anything else -- no one likes a know-it-all.) And really, why wouldn't you want FB to be a safe place where your friends can communicate with you and others? I have a dear, dear friend with a horrific upbringing and seriously lacking education (and, I suspect, I learning disability) that never goes on FB or writes e-mail because she is embarrassed by her own struggles with writing. It makes me more than a little angry when broad assumptions are generated about people like my friend, simply because of her lack of abilities in a certain area. Especially in a casual social setting, like what FB is generally thought to be. The message that many of those who feel chastised receive is that they aren't good enough to express themselves through writing, which is a tragedy, in my opinion. Sure, if you're a professional, then post your rant in an appropriate forum. Otherwise, don't be surprised when people become animated and emotional over something as dear as expression through the written word. We have no ability, for the most part, to discern which poor spellers are such because of laziness or because of other issues.
ReplyDeleteI can only speak for myself as a writer, but I think we are more picky about spelling than others. Which isn't necessarily bad. Just different.
ReplyDeleteI know someone who is fabulous in his scientific profession, but when I get an email from him with typos, I admit he comes across as not wanting to put in the extra effort, with spellcheck and all that. It's also hard to take someone seriously when they slam something you've written and misspell their rant.
When I get an FB comment trying to engage me in debate, I usually try not to debate back, since I want to stay friends with them. :-) Usually they settle down, and everything blows over.
I do have to say, I think spelling comes more naturally to some than others, so something we take for granted as easy may be really hard for others.
Wow, so many wonderful, thoughtful responses -- such an INTERESTING topic with different viewpoints....I'm really enjoying the banter today!!
ReplyDeleteTo clarify some things:
1. I don't correct people's grammar. Or if I do, it's a) because they've asked me to, or b) because it's my sister, in which case I do it in private (she wants me to correct her if there's an error on her blog, especially)
2. I didn't rant on FB. I said that the spelling and apostrophe errors on FB made my insides shrivel. I didn't pick on anyone in particular; I was just being myself. (My friends are used to me.) (Well, most of them, at any rate.)
3. I actually can't stand when people feel compelled to correct the errors of others. I may be TWITCHING to correct something, but I sit on my hands until they turn blue. ;)
"Is it okay to use "I've always been a bad speller" as an excuse for handing in manuscripts rife with spelling errors?"
ReplyDeleteNO! It's not even close to okay. It's just plain laziness on that particular writer's part. I'm a horrible speller, which is the reason I check and double check and triple check my spelling before turning in a manuscript.
Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the evolution of English. (If you ask me, the sooner "whom" disappears, the better. I never know when to use it.) But like you said, there's a difference between evolution and sloppiness.
Oh how I love your rants! And while I completely get it, being a person with ADD and the corresponding slow processing speed that accompanies it in my case, I don't always get things right. I think I know how to spell and it isn't until I read something a week later that I wonder, who was that person last week who couldn't spell necessary? I find errors all the time.
ReplyDeleteI once wrote on a public board about something in which "voila!" was part of my sentence, only I spelled it "wa la!" Did I know that voila was spelled voila? Yes. But somehow, because of ?? (aliens took over my brain, processing speed was down to 0 that day, I don't know), I spelled it "wa la". Someone on that board anonymously posted a correction to my spelling in a not very nice way. It was very humiliating.
I'm not saying you would do this (of course!), but not everyone's brain works the same. I strive to spell correctly! But sometimes, I just don't.
This is such a lovely and articulate post on an issue that is quite sticky, but drives me crazy every day! I shudder every time I see people that I know are intelligent and educated writing nearly illiterate posts and comments.
ReplyDeleteI teach freshman composition and I can tell you that this is a problem that is beginning to have a very serious effect on the upcoming generation. Many students who were born and raised in the US exhibit almost ESL type problems and it is hindering their ability to succeed at a collegiate level! And this is not in regards to learning disabilities, but with the abbreviated culture that is starting to have a real impact on the ability for people to communicate.
Okay once again, let us please make a distinction between the ability to spell and the technology required to display it - One has nothing to do with the other - our fingers move lightning fast over a keyboard and we may mix words or whatever. If we are typing a term paper for college then we go SLOOOWer....but to comment on a pub message board who cares? That, in no way excuses typos in manuscripts for submission any more than it would be okay to almost feed the baby by wiping Gerbers all over his chin and missing the mouth. Unacceptable. But, when we are all friends and commenting then who cares? It is like staying together at the cabin over the long weekend and on saturday morning I would really like to come out and get morning tea with my friends in my sweats and t shirt. Is it the coat and tie that makes me look best? No. But I am among friends. And again - we are talking about typing on a keyboard where mistakes are inevitable - more so if you are fast. What I really object to, is the dearth of reactions to life - if I hear "awesome" one more time coming from an adult mouth I will hurl. Same with "cool" or "sucks".. if you are 14 then go for it but older than that and I expect better than that. Adults I want you to be ADULTS. Please - hey know what? it is really sexy. Nothing is more pathetic thn anyone over the age of 19 trying to talk, walk, stay a kid. Please. Someone above said something about the arbitrariness of language - I applaud that. My best friend told me about his power over his son. He said "If I call the telephone a banana, he will grow up thinking that is what it's name is" He was kidding but it is true - he could have said answer the banana or get off the banana till the cows came home and the kid would never have known the difference.
ReplyDeleteJust because I love to write, know how to spell, and always look up a word before misspelling it, doesn't mean I expect the same from others. It would be like hanging out with a doctor who always judges me for eating too much salt because it's bad for my body. When you look down on someone, regardless of the reason, you lose their respect and their will to change. Lighten up, people!
ReplyDeleteThe spelling thing doesn't bother me as much as the entire transgression of language as a whole. Spelling's an easy fix, but the stringing together of words so it makes sense, shows some semblance of understanding the language you communicate by...that's my pet peeve! I'm afraid it comes from our advancement in technology and the way language is developing through it. And Facebook, don't even get me started on that one!
ReplyDeleteAuthoress, you are preaching to the choir! It irritates me to no end that we are cutting out spelling from our schools because we now have spellcheck to do it (and we know how reliable spellcheck can be).
ReplyDeleteIn college, I interned with an in-house magazine at a snotty athletic club (yes, they were snotty- black people weren't allowed in the building unless they had a mop in their hand and heaven forbid any of us lowly employees say hello to a member!) My job consisted mainly of editing the articles written by their paid staff writer, a journalism graduate from a top private university. Her "finished" articles were atrocious. There were so many spelling and grammar errors I usually ended up rewriting the whole piece, which made her look good, of course!
Don't know what she did after I left, since this was pre-computer. I just remember being glad that I turned down her college, as they obviously had low standards of quality.
I'm not perfect and I don't claim to be, but I try to do the best I can. Several years ago, I was exposed to mold and it basically wiped out my reading and writing skills (our public schools are notorious for mold, hence the poor test scores and learning disabilities). I could have gone the victim route and accepted that I would spend the rest of my life "riting like normel ppl". Instead, I got pissed, and I spent years re-teaching myself, relying on my handy dandy dictionary, sometimes for every.single.freaking.word.
And now people pay me to write! So hard work, persistence, and getting pissed can pay off.
Happy Dolphin- How about "groovy"? We use that all the time in our cool, old-person, ironic retro way. :)
ReplyDeleteAnd we don't use "cool" or "sucks" because we're trying to stay young, we use them because those were our terms first!
I would say that your friend is clearly not holding your friendship in the same regard. She's fallen out with you because she thinks you were having a go at people with learning disabilities - is that really the image of you that a real friend would have?
ReplyDeleteBut friendships aside, I agree with what you've said here. I know if I went back about 8 - 10 years I'd see myself taking short cuts with written language in places like MySpace, or texting, or even online chatting and MSN. But then as I became more focussed on my writing as a career choice, I became more focussed on the language I used and how it presented me to others online.
There seem to be two distinct camps on the internet: those who type with care for proper grammar and spelling, and those who don't. I think that both sides have the same mindset over one thing though - that the way they type their messages, the language they choose and how they display it, is an extension of themselves. And even more so, the group of peers they wish to relate with most.
Of course I would never object to 'groovy.' I mean - who would? And if they would - why? :)
ReplyDeleteTo DJ - I really love your posts and your elaboration on just about everything. But, I nust object when you say mold is the reason our children are idiots. Mold is a problem. Okay. But American kids are so stupid that we may have to actually write a new chapter of the bible to cover just how inept they are. AND THAT is how democracy dies. Just get enough stupid people together and tell them they have the right to vote when they have not the foggiest clue what the f to vote for or what it means - because, like, Justin Bieber should be rpresident. And that has nothing to do with mold - unless that is mom and dad's name. then woohoo. IT has to do wth a celebrity obsessed culture who got everything spoon fed to them. (Of course I am not talking about the Backstreet Boys who were legit entertainment). :)
HD~ I didn't mean mold was the only problem, I just meant it can be part of the problem. So can chemicals and other indoor environmental pollutions, and even nutrition can play into it- low blood sugar, food intolerances and poor dietary habits, for instance.
ReplyDeleteLearning disabilities/differences can be layered, because we're often dealing with many complex issues. For instance, my niece "Alix" is a bright young girl, yet she struggles with reading because her mom, a shining example of why you should have to take tests before being allowed to have children, has told Alix repeatedly she won't be able to read, because she couldn't at that age. Luckily for Alix she has amazing grandparents who work with her daily, but the mom has instilled this in the poor little girl's brain as a belief.
And your job- if you choose to accept it- is to work with those children to get through miles of complicated layers to find the hidden key(s) to their individual difficulties. NOT a simple task, and you should all be paid twice as much as a professional basketball player.
But our world tends to have confusing priorities, Justin Bieber being one of them!
I can live with text speak becoming its own sub-language, but outright errors and mixed up homonyms drive me batty!
ReplyDeleteas I said before...the most rewarding time of my teaching experience was when I was with the kids who "could not" read. In some cases it was "would not" - with the boys especially. But, one day we read a pirate book and we were runniong behind....so I toolk a voice (a part) and I did it like a pirate - Jack Sparrow - and the kids boys, and girls were just thrilled.....all because I, an adult, was making a funny pirate voice and reading - after that we all got along great and - as I say - I went home every night and was just thrilled - because we did something TOGETHER. And That was the part I wanted everyone to know and the part that has stayed with me - reading is a together sport - so is writing. we might not always get the teammates we want but we will find out quick qho we want them to be. With all those kids - and most of them completely disenfranchised - I do not want to give America a excuse - low this low that...no, let' just work hard and please put the meds away. As I said in a much earlier post..pain is a real feeling - so if your teenager is crying or moping...don't stuff his throat wth pills - congratulations - you have a normal teenager.
ReplyDeleteI rarely post comments... but I did have to jump in on this one.
ReplyDeleteI'm dyslexic. In fact, that's the primary reason I'm working so hard to improve my writing.
...and I've been working at it since I was 7 years old when I figured out there was something *wrong* with me. I would have anxiety attacks before spelling tests to the point where I got really sick and missed over a month of school.
As someone who struggles with this, it really bothers me when other people with dyslexia use it as a weapon to defend themselves... 'cause all that is doing is lashing out (intentionally) at someone who has (unintentionally) said something that made you feel bad.
Sure, I misspell thing, sure I mix words up and swap sentences around into mind-bendingly-unreadable constructs... but I am self-aware enough to save an important email draft, sleep on it, and look at it again with fresh eyes. I ask questions if I'm unsure, or look it up. Google is a wonderful thing...
Lashing out doesn't fix anything. All it does is spread hate around and make everyone involved feel worse.
My philosophy is, 'don't complain, do something about it instead.'
...and for a 7 year old killing myself with anxiety... what I did was start staying in the classroom at recess to memorize the shapes of words.
Hell, if I can take the time and effort to make sure my spelling is correct (with the occasional slip-up), then why shouldn't someone who isn't dyslexic?
There's no excuse for just being lazy.
Most days, I happily read your blog posts without commenting... after all, there are plenty of wonderful people to leave remarks, and most of the time, I don't feel I can really add anything to the awesome-ness that has already been said...
ReplyDeleteBut THIS?!
[shudders]
THIS be one of my pet peeves!
Instead of going off on a rant about how much I hate the bad spelling and bad grammar of our generation and how much text jargon SERIOUSLY irks me, I'll just give you a whole hearted AMEN!! and call it good.
...
Okay... I lied... I have to say it again..
I really, REALLY hate text abbreviations. Like bad. I don't care if its LOL, OMG, How r u or Sk8ter Boi (even though I totally loved that song in high school)... I hate it all. I don't know of any studies to back me up, but I'm pretty sure its killing the intelligence of the up-and-coming generation.
Then again, maybe its not. What do I know?
But amen to you anyway!
I'm always embarrassed when I see people i know to be adults, intelligent, and college-educated making basic spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors, esp. homonyms like you're and your, its and it's, their, there, and they're, were and where, whose and who's, than and then, etc. I usually guess that they're not big readers, or they'd know the difference. Text-speak is also like nails on a chalkboard.
ReplyDeleteI SO agree with everyone saying that adults/teachers/parents should never EXPECT their children to fail when it comes it comes to literacy. My mother pushed and pushed, and I was a very early reader because of it - and her grandmother did the same with her, and I and my mother do the same with my little siblings.
ReplyDeleteOn the whole I don't care whether people read fast or slow, or find spelling easy or hard, I care that they try. Making the effort is the difference.
I lose so much respect for people who adopt 'text speak' and such in everyday writing because it's easier, or who don't like reading. Not like reading? If you don't like reading, it's because you've never tried...
I remembered I shared one of my favourite books with my eight year old sister - it was an enormous fantasy epic, but she just read it. It took her a vERY long time, but now it's one of her favourites, too. I'm sure some would say 'that's far beyond her reading level' and not offer it, but nobody ever did that to me and I certainly won't do it to anyone else.
-And while I certainly admit to IMing "How r u?" to my husband,-
ReplyDeleteI actually read that as "I-Ming" and wondered if Apple acquired Flash Gordon.
Yeah, me and IT, we are like water and oil, at least in the language department. :)
So, on-topic:
I tend to ascribe the lack of any coherent spelling and the rampant (ab-)use of abbreviations on the fact that facebook is an informal message system, a simple, large chatroom.
I want to note that with new technology, I have made many errors in online comments. With my iPad, I'm forced to type with two fingers and can't always scroll back to previous lines to see what I've typed simply because of page "hot spots" that don't provide scroll bars, keyboard limitations onscreen, or long delays to press and hold the cursor to move back to previous paragraphs for proofreading purposes.
ReplyDeleteOn my smart phone, I have "swype" technology which allows me to swing my big, sausage-shaped finger across the keyboard and whichever letter I slightly pause on is selected in the best-guessed, auto-selected word. Which turns out to be wrong in about 1 out of every 15 words.
In a blog post comment, sometimes the lines scroll past and I can't easily go back up to review what I finished typing, or my iPad won't expand the page and the comment box is so tiny I can't read what I am typing.
On twitter, I'm restricted to 140 characters and am forced to make up word shortcuts to make myself understood without a 4-part tweet that makes no sense in a discussion where I'm interrupted by 20 other posts that came in while I was typing part 3.
On THIS very blog, when the Authoress asked for birthday reasons we love this blog, I wrote a longish post, then upon reading the posted comment saw some typos. I copied the text, deleted it, and repeated with the correction, but that left a "comment deleted by author" notice. And I wondered if anyone would think it was someone saying something mean-spirited perhaps and had second thoughts and so removed it. THEN, I noticed another typo of "it's" which should have been "its" -- auto correct did that for me (hooray!). But by that time, I just was NOT going to delete the post again. So when Authoress posted about 87 hearts, I cringed knowing it was really only 86 because of my deleted comment.
There is no easy way to delete a FB post without disrupting the flow of conversation. (If you are not easily offended, you can Google "Facebook trolling win" to see how a deleted post can wreak havoc.) Until we can edit blog post comments, I'll just have to live with the errors. But, I do know better.
I like Happy Dolphin's analogy of us as an online group where sometimes it is easier to come into the kitchen for morning coffee in our PJs rather than a business suit and/or heels. If I am writing a white paper for publication, I'll use correspondingly appropriate technology and proofreading effort. If I'm in bed posting on FB with my smartphone, I hope everyone understands my occasional typo.
If we as writers do not set and expect a standard above the norm, we are doomed to mediocrity and might as well hand in our pens. This lack of care with the written word can only lead us back to a time when sounds and grunts passed for communication. In some aspects of our culture, sounds and grunts ARE the norm already.
ReplyDeleteEnglish is my second language, and I try to be as good as possible. But the rules for commas still muddle my brain sometimes.
ReplyDeleteThere are rules? I just put them in wherever they look pretty!:)
ReplyDeletePS~ It's very impressive that you do so well in different languages. I'm still trying to muddle through English and it's my only language!
I look at it this way- Language in all its forms is for communication, not for perfection.
ReplyDeleteThough I am a perfectionist in my own writing, writing is my profession. I get paid for it so I'd better be good at it.
I have, however, learned not to expect this level of performance from others, especially on the internet.
And I have to disagree with the idea that if we keep going down this road human language will somehow be destroyed our useless (or fall off a cliff). Language has always evolved, and the gate-keepers of language (writers and English teachers, mainly) have always decried the decline of the English language, when in fact, one of language's best features is its ability to change and adapt as humans and their environment change. Language is not going extinct any time soon.
But, yes, you can bet your life the way our children write and speak and blog and communicate is going to be very different than the way we do. For example, cursive writing is probably going to completely disappear off the face of the earth, and that makes me sad, but I try not to be a luddite about it.
Language will change, and we are going to think it is getting worse.
That is called nostalgia.
But as long as people can communicate things to other people using written and spoken words, I think we'll be okay.
Just wanted to say I've really enjoyed reading this discussion and seeing everyone's different points of view and takes on spelling in the modern age.
ReplyDeleteI'm somewhat new to the community here, and I'm really impressed by everyone's ability to get themselves across calmly and coherently.
Thanks Authoress, for once again making posts that give rise to discussion.
I've had many rants on the same subject. Learning disabilities have little to do with it. Of course, there's a small percantage who are dyslexic or have a struggle, but most people are just darned lazy and that's the truth. They don't bother to learn the difference between you're and your, its and it's, or there, their and they're. It isn't hard, and if people CARED about their grammar and spelling as much as they CARED about making duck faces in the bathroom mirror, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
ReplyDeleteThe sensitivity and victimization issues taught in schools and pop culture may have something to do with it, too. When called out because of an understandable error or simple mistake, the reaction now is to immediately go on the attack, and claim victimhood and special status.
ReplyDeleteNo, I agree. It's sheer laziness. One of the reasons I'm not looking forward to having a FB page again for my pen name.
I'm with you 100% on this issue. My pet annoyances are when restaurants don't take the time to check the spelling on their specials boards, or the sign writing on a business is misspelt. It doesn't inspire much confidence in the proprietors. Public image does matter.
ReplyDeleteAnother one that peeves me is when you go to an agent blog with spelling and grammar mistakes (although most agent blogs are word perfect). On one I visited recently the profile started out by stating that spelling wasn't a strength! And, as if that justified it - the entries were riddled with errors. I won't be querying that agency. If they don't care about their own work, how can I trust them with mine?
You, my dear, are what linguists call a prescriptivist--someone who believes there is a right and wrong in language. I must admit that I don't share your views, but obviously we always want to be clear wherever we write.
ReplyDeleteYou might like this--Steven Fry knows best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY
Petre Pan -- I DID enjoy that -- thank you! :)
ReplyDeletePersonally, I think the comment about learning disabilities was way off base. First off, the number of people who actually HAVE disabilities is tiny when compared with the number of lazy and/or intentionally ignorant people (and yes, in these days of free public education, bad spelling is intentional ignorance for US-born and raised individuals). Second, nobody should ever take a rant like that as a slur against the truly disabled - but in my experience, people who struggle with dyslexia and similar disabilities usually work HARD to overcome them - and would be equally ticked off to learn that otherwise able people who just don't care are trying to hide behind the shield of disability.
ReplyDeleteIf the person who was offended is actually disabled, I can see the point, but I don't think it's fair to excuse widespread ignorance just because some members of a community have a real problem.
I do hold myself to as high a standard as possible when it comes to public grammar and spelling. I don't hold others to the same level that I require of myself, but I do notice the errors and it does impact the way I view people, sometimes - mostly when I find errors in comments that harshly criticize the spelling and/or grammar of others.
So I have a friend with a learning disability - dyslexia - and when he writes he takes a longer time because he has to double check everything. He doesn't use it as an excuse. That was a classic internet smokescreen debate move to bring in the disability. We all know texting has intensified lazy writing.
ReplyDeleteInteresting comments!